refinersfire

You people have just been added to our "Exposing False Prophets" page! http://therefinersfire.org/gaiaguys.htm

Shame on you for lying to the world! What kind of drugs are you on?

And by the way, the German language doesn't have ANY numerical values - that shows how you're deliberately trying to fool the world! Ihr versucht, durch die deutsche Sprache die Welt zu verarschen - aber wir sind nicht alle so doof wie ihr denkt. Das idiotische Zeug das ihr geschrieben habt kommt von den Teufel her!

[gaiaguys' translation: "You try, through the German language, to con the world - but we are not all as dumb as you think. That idiotic stuff you have written comes from the devil!"]

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction

From: gaiaguys.net [mailto:gaiaguys@gaiaguys.net ]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 5:32 PM
To: BiblicalTruth@therefinersfire.org
Cc: michael@theyfly.com
Subject: re: Your blasphemous comments about Jesus http://www.gaiaguys.net/

Dear Sir or Madam,

Thank you for your refreshingly frank emails, and I apologize for taking so long to reply to yours of December 1st & 7th, as we have sustained several recent catastrophic illegal attacks by hackers, followed by several weeks of mysterious telephone line difficulties.

We are only now getting caught up with our huge backlog of unanswered emails.

Whereas we are always grateful for the increasing exposure provided by religious websites like yours, (which seem to have a common theme of animated .gif flames on a jet black background) we would ask you to please correct the spelling of our URL published at http://therefinersfire.org/gaiaguys.htm (gaiaguys.net, not "Gaieaguys.net") Thank you.

You have written: "Shame on you for lying to the world! What kind of drugs are you on?"

We do not take drugs, and indeed, prior to your email to us, recently published this from one of the main source of our information.

page 38 of Art zu Leben by Billy Meier

176. Wohl haben Menschen böse Mittel erfunden, um den Sinn der schöpferischen Gerechtigkeit, das Gewissen, zum Erliegen zu bringen, doch zeitigen diese Mittel nur eine sehr kurze und beschränkte Dauer.

176. Humans have indeed invented evil means to bring the sense of creational justice, being the conscience, to a standstill, yet these means only have a short and very limited duration.

177. Alkohol und Halluzinogene stellen die bekanntesten dieser sehr gefährlichen Mittel dar.

177. Alcohol and hallucinogens represent the best known of these very dangerous means.

178. Die Kraft des Bewusstseins und des Gewissens aber können durch diese Gifte nicht vernichtet, sondern nur zeitweilig lahmgelegt werden, um dann nach einer Ernüchterung um so stärker wieder in Funktion zu treten.

178. But the power of consciousness and the conscience cannot be destroyed by these poisons, rather will only be temporarily paralyzed, then, after a sobering up, will return to function that much stronger.

179. Auch wenn der Drang nach solchen Giften zur Sucht ausgeartet ist, werden doch immer wieder Zeiten des Besinnens in das Leben des davon abhängigen Menschen treten, während denen der Sinn der schöpferischen Gerechtigkeit seine Forderungen stellt, seine Mahnungen anbringt und eine unzweideutige Sprache redet.

179. Even if the yearning for such poisons has degenerated into an addiction, the times will still come again and again the dependent person to reflect upon life, during which time the sense of creational justice will provide its outstanding accounts, [make its demands] and deliver its dunning letter of demand [warnings/admonishons], and talk in an unambiguous language.

180. Nicht einmal die ausgearteteste Lebensform vermag an der Wahrheit dieser Tatsache unbeachtet vorüberzugehen, denn die Form des Gewissens ist für ewige Zeiten beständig.

180. Not even the most degenerated form of life will [never] want [be able] to bypass [the truth of] this fact without observing it, because the form of the conscience is eternally resistant[constant].

Similarly we refute your unsupported (except by religious dogma) assertion that we are not telling the truth, and fraternally invite you to apply simply logic to our vast pool of logically and independently corroborated evidence.

Although you demand "proof" of truth, I respectfully put it to you that all anyone can really provide is evidence. Proof is something that each individual must logically deduce from that (and related) evidence, unless we are referring to legal proof, which is, of course, customarily decided in court.

You write: "And just what and where are these teachings of 'Jmmanuel' - whoever THAT's supposed to be?"

A Google search will help, but we have quite a bit of information about him and his Talmud Jmmanuel (not the Talmud of Babylonia, which we own and are familiar with) linked from www.gaiaguys.net/meier.htm and we invite you to study the website of our co-worker, Professor James Deardorff www.tjresearch.info

Professor Deardorff, not unlike yourselves, was a religious person who started out trying to "debunk" the Talmud Jmmanuel, and after many years of very scrupulous scholarship, is now its most thorough advocate for its genuineness.

You also state, "At 'gaiaguys', they are literally the 'blind leading the blind'. Unfortunately, there will be many who will choose to blindly follow their 'ear-tickling' garbage...."

I was rather amused to see how inadequate your investigation of our work actually is, as revealed by your expression "ear-tickling"! Nobody has ever accused us of that before. Usually it's the exact opposite, and affected individuals are confronted by our trenchant and undiplomatic bluntness in delivering the harsh and abrasive truth! Please see www.gaiaguys.net/hardlanguageoftruth.htm

Regarding your assertion that we are somehow employing the German language to deceive people. ("Ihr versucht, durch die deutsche Sprache die Welt zu verarschen .") ...

("You try, through the German language, to con the world ...")

Sadly, all the information coming from the Plejaren Federation and its associates is in German - more than 24,000 pages at last count - and since only about 500 pages have been officially translated, my partner and I spend a lot of time and effort translating and publishing this material for non-German language English speakers. Some of our [being fellow truth-supporters] work has now also been further translated into other languages for the sake of its accurate promulgation. Please see: www.gaiaguys.net/judas.htm

We hope that you can respond in the same loving spirit in which this is sent, and - in any case - we wish you well in your support of the liberating and empowering truth, which we think is amenable to simple logic, but is tragically obscured by cant.

I do not exaggerate when I when I seriously advise you that an adequate understanding of the iconoclastic truth we deliver might just save your lives. Ignorance is not always bliss. Often it is fatal.

Please do make the time to find out why we get up to 16 million hits a day on our private, volunteer whistleblowers' website.

Peace in wisdom,
Dyson Devine (and Vivienne Legg)
775 Upper Coldstream Rd.
Tyndale NSW Australia 2460
www.gaiaguys.net

OM 32:1126. Feuer reinigt das Gold und verschlingt das Holz. (Fire purifies gold and consumes wood.) www.gaiaguys.net/om.htm

From: "Biblical Truth" <BiblicalTruth@therefinersfire.org >
Sent: Friday, 29 December 2006 5:13 PM
To: gaiaguys@gaiaguys.net
Subject: RE: Your blasphemous comments about Jesus http://www.gaiaguys.net/

Dear Dyson,

Thank you for your response. Let's get right to your comments:
You said: Whereas we are always grateful for the increasing exposure provided by religious websites like yours, (which seem to have a common theme of animated .gif flames on a jet black background) we would ask you to please correct the spelling of our URL published at http://therefinersfire.org/gaiaguys.htm (gaiaguys.net, not "Gaieaguys.net") Thank you.

My response: Your sarcasm is duly noted - and perhaps, warranted. I could name some peculiar things about your website, as well, but let's not get childish about this. I will certainly make the requested correction, and even update the article somewhat since you've suggested I familiarize myself a little more with your assertions. (I've done so with great effort since NONE of your articles make one iota of sense!) My original comments were mainly aimed at your ridiculous assertion that Jesus is Lucifer, and The numerical value of 666 corresponds to the the German language values of God, Church, Christ and Jesus, in which you show NO PROOF, whatsoever - citing only the crazy, maniacal rants of Meier, which you seem to unquestioningly take for Gospel! That is why I asked what drugs you're on.

Since I had never heard of "Talmud Jmmanuel" (and neither had my Messianic Rabbi nor any of my Messianic and/or Christian and Jewish friends), I checked the internet and found Discovery of the "Talmud Jmmanuel" http://www.tjresearch.info/discovery.htm which contained an article that read: "For one, its title involved Jmmanuel (i.e., Immanuel, spelled with a J symbol supplying the "i" sound in place of the Aramaic/Hebrew letter "Ayin") rather than Jesus or Y'shua." Since there is no "J" in the Hebrew language, and there would have been no need to to use a "J", I contend that the "J" simply came from the mind of Swiss "discoverer" of the "Talmud Jmannuel[sic]", Eduard Meier, who wrote the Germanic "I" which happens to looks like "J" - and everyone else simply "jumped on the bandwagon"....

Furthermore, this particular article goes on to say: "In 1976 Meier learned that Rashid and his family were assassinated in Baghdad, making him (Meier) the only known surviving witness to the TJ's discovery and historicity." My response is: How very convenient! No wonder "the world" has never heard of "Talmud Jmmanuel"....
Funny, also, how your site and related sites you've linked to, have obviously taken scriptures (and even the "Ten Commandments") from the Bible and twisted them so to suit your own agenda which seems to be to deceive the whole world. Unfortunately, people are believing your rhetoric, so whatever you're doing is working. The Bible warns us that "false prophets and teachers" would come and perpetrate these things. So, go ahead and rejoice....You've accomplished your mission. However, I would hate to be you on Judgment Day!

You said: Similarly we refute your unsupported (except by religious dogma) assertion that we are not telling the truth, and fraternally invite you to apply simply logic to our vast pool of logically and independently corroborated evidence. Although you demand "proof" of truth, I respectfully put it to you that all anyone can really provide is evidence. Proof is something that each individual must logically deduce from that (and related) evidence, unless we are referring to legal proof, which is, of course, customarily decided in court.

My response: In my opinion, your "evidence" is no evidence, because you've proven nothing. All you have is the say-so of those who want desperately to believe in Meier and his quirky, nonsensical assertions. Meier has admitted to "hoaxing" people with photographs of supposed UFOs, so why should the world believe ANYTHING he said?

I'd like to pose the idea that, either Meier (1) is playing a game with the world because he apparently likes to perform hoaxes; or, he (2) is being used by Satan as one of our major end times "false prophets" that the Bible warns us about (please see our articles challenging "false prophets" http://therefinersfire.org/challenging_false_prophets.htm ). For instance, excerpts from the article, "Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt", insist that Meier was shown various prophecies from the Pleiades. Oddly, many of these same "prophecies" are listed in the Bible - new diseases and epidemics; the fact that Jews and Muslims (Isaac and Ishmael) would be at each other's throats; etc. The Book of Revelation shows some very odd items being used in modern warfare - for which the writer, John, had no words in his time. Funny how Meier's assertions run parallel to the BIBLE!

The article "Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" says, in part: The universe, and everything in it, is governed by unalterable laws, basic among them is the law of cause and effect. Once the pendulum is sent out on its way, it will eventually return with the predictable result. The law always fulfills itself, in its own timing and its own way. Meier and his extraterrestrial friends seem to be able to predict, i.e. accurately calculate, the results of known to them causal actions originating from humanity and/or nature and the cosmos. And they have made it clear that certain prophesied (undesired) events can still be changed for the better..
News flash! The universe was created by Yahweh who gave us hints that NOBODY back in "Biblical times" could possibly have known about: http://www.therefinersfire.org/science_bible.htm . Also, please read http://www.therefinersfire.org/science_and_bible.htm

Only GOD knows what the future holds (and what the future holds is amply outlined in the Bible, and judging from all events including ever-worsening political conditions, natural disasters, various epidemics, etc., were ARE in the "end times" as outlined in the Books of Daniel and Revelation: http://therefinersfire.org/endtime_questions.htm

In the 215th Contact, known as the Henoch Prophecies, special emphasis was placed on America and the very times we are in. (These prophecies will be contained in the book "And Still They Fly!") More recent comments by Meier have also carried harsh and heavy warnings about the current American administration and leadership and the danger of its leading the world into a cataclysmic Third World War. Considering the credibility the Plejaren have established with their track record of impeccable accuracy since at least 1975, it would be wise of us to consider their future warnings with great seriousness.

Rather than to blindly follow beings NOBODY except for Meier has "seen", I would suggest you follow the Bible! Things are unfolding EXACTLY as God planned because man keeps falling right into his own trap BECAUSE he has ignored and disobeyed God. The Bible tells us that, in the end times, all the world will hate the Jews and eventually go up against Israel. Well, we're just about there....The only thing that has yet to happen is the appearance of the Antichrist whom the world will adore and worship because of the miraculous things he will be able to do. When this man appears, he will eventually make a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and that will be the beginning of the end as we know it....

The article "UFO Prophet Right Again?" says: "And it will be that the fanatics of Islam will rise up and cover the lands of Europe with war, all will shake and quiver."

The Muslims who have written to challenge my website have assured me that "one day the whole world WILL convert to Islam, or die". These things have been unfolding over thousands and years, and "the end" is right now!

And by the way, since more than 300 Bible prophecies have already come true, and are unfolding before our very eyes (especially in the Middle East), you can be assured the rest of the prophecies will also come true. (If the Bible isn't a "literal text", then please explain why more than 300 prophecies have already come true and are unfolding before our very eyes - especially in the Middle East. Please see http://therefinersfire.org/accurate_messiah_prophecies.htm .)

Explain just how it could be a coincidence that two of God's major end times prophecies about the Jews and Israel came true in 1948, right after the Holocaust when the world briefly felt sorry for the Jews - which resulted in the Jews getting Israel back, and in one day, exactly as the Bible predicted: http://www.therefinersfire.org/israel_born_in_one_day.htm . (No one can say that these particular prophecies were written "just to make the OT prophecies come true in the NT", as was suggested by one of my atheist challengers.)

Some people have insisted that the Bible couldn't contain Truth because no one can verify what really happened, since we can't go back and personally interview Jesus or His disciples, or any of the writers of the four Gospels. My response is: Based on that premise, you can't "believe" that any of the Roman caesars, or George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon Bonaparte existed, either...."

Based on the same premise, since no one has seen or talked to Meier's aliens, they don't exist. Based on the fact that many of Meier's assertions seem to come straight from the Bible, neither Meier nor his alien friends were the original authors of many of his "predictions"! Even his use of the word "talmud" wasn't original!

The fact is, many of the Bible prophecies that have come true CAN be verified today! For instance, can you explain the "coincidence" that people today are being BEHEADED (not shot, stabbed, hanged or choked, but BEHEADED), exactly as as foretold in Revelation 20:4? Can you explain why Islam is suddenly rearing up its ugly head and going up against the Jews and Christians (although that is being dowplayed[sic] by the media)? (See our "Mark of the Beast" article at http://www.therefinersfire.org/mark_of_the_beast.htm and other articles on our Challenging Islam page: http://therefinersfire.org/challenging_islam.htm ) Who are the only people in the world who still beheadand/behand? The Muslims.....And what a "coincidence" that the fight between the Muslims and the Jews began in "Old Testament" times: http://www.therefinersfire.org/ishmael_and_isaac.htm . It is being played out today exactly as the Bible foretold.

You said: You write: "And just what and where are these teachings of 'Jmmanuel' - whoever THAT's supposed to be?" A Google search will help, but we have quite a bit of information about him and his Talmud Jmmanuel (not the Talmud of Babylonia, which we own and are familiar with) linked from www.gaiaguys.net/meier.htm and we invite you to study the website of our co-worker, Professor James Deardorff www.tjresearch.info

My response: A "talmud" which NOBODY except for Meier can vouch for because he's the only "discoverer" since Rashid and his family were assassinated in Baghdad, making him (Meier) the only known surviving witness to the TJ's discovery and historicity! I have a better idea: Perhaps it would behoove Professor James Deardorff and everyone at Gaiaguys to study the writings of the teachers, pastors and rabbis at The Refiner's Fire....

You said: Professor Deardorff, not unlike yourselves, was a religious person who started out trying to "debunk" the Talmud Jmmanuel, and after many years of very scrupulous scholarship, is now its most thorough advocate for its genuineness.

My response: "Religious" is not the same as being a believer in Christ. Professor Deardorff might have been "religious" but since he has backed away from Yahweh and His Son Yeshua and become a disciple of Meier, I assure you, he was NEVER a true believer! He's apparently one of the "elect" who has been thoroughly deceived (Matthew 24:24) and has allowed himself to be used for Satan's purposes.

You said: I was rather amused to see how inadequate your investigation of our work actually is, as revealed by your expression "ear-tickling"! Nobody has ever accused us of that before. Usually it's the exact opposite, and affected individuals are confronted by our trenchant and undiplomatic bluntness in delivering the harsh and abrasive truth! Please see www.gaiaguys.net/hardlanguageoftruth.htm

My response: People are willing to follow any doctrine that sounds good to them. People NEED something to believe in! UFOs, and ETs are magnets for those who haven't got a clue about God. So, you may call my "investigation of your work inadquate[sic]", or anything else you want to call it. But, that doesn't change the fact that YOUR work smells like a complete hoax! This is not surprising since Matthew 7:13 tells us the most people will not be taking "that narrow gate that leads to life"....

You said: Sadly, all the information coming from the Plejaren Federation and its associates is in German - more than 24,000 pages at last count - and since only about 500 pages have been officially translated, my partner and I spend a lot of time and effort translating and publishing this material for non-German language English speakers. Some of our [being fellow truth-supporters] work has now also been further translated into other languages for the sake of its accurate promulgation. Please see: www.gaiaguys.net/judas.htm

My response: Yeah, right....Plejaren Federation....Tell them to contact me, okay? I'd like to talk to them, personally! (Since they're so all-knowing and all-seeing, they surely know who I am and how to contact me!) Question: Even if Judas HAD written the garbage espoused in the above link, WHY would any sane and rational person want to believe the ramblings of a traitor?

You said: We hope that you can respond in the same loving spirit in which this is sent, and - in any case - we wish you well in your support of the liberating and empowering truth, which we think is amenable to simple logic, but is tragically obscured by cant.

My response: Loving spirit? Hmmmm. That's debatable, but no matter. I can't say I wish YOU well in your support of "truth" because what you're doing doesn't line up with THE TRUTH but, rather, plays right into the Bible's warnings about end times false prophets.

You said: I do not exaggerate when I when I seriously advise you that an adequate understanding of the iconoclastic truth we deliver might just save your lives. Ignorance is not always bliss. Often it is fatal.

My response: The ONLY thing that will save our lives is the Truth of Messiah Yeshua. If you choose to continue to ignore Him, it WILL be a fatal decision - one that will last throughout eternity...

You said: Please do make the time to find out why we get up to 16 million hits a day on our private, volunteer whistleblowers' website.

My response: I already know why you get 16 million hits a day: People are sheep who will follow ANYTHING. You and the Raelians should get together! Claude Vorilhon and Billy Meier would get along famously.

Shalom, Neumann

Seems Neumann is similarly unaware of the implacable opposition of these two men, and Rael's defamation lawsuit against Billy. We have a bit about the Raelian cult which can be found if you scroll down this page.

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org )

Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction

From: Michael [mailto:michael@theyfly.com ]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:31 PM
To: BiblicalTruth@TheRefinersFire.org
Subject: Count me in!

Hi there Refiner's Fire,

My friends at www.gaiaguys.net informed me of your correspondence (and the info at: http://therefinersfire.org/gaiaguys.htm ), since I'm closely associated with them through our common involvement in studying the Billy Meier case and the Talmud Jmmanuel, so I thought I'd invite you to also visit my website: www.theyfly.com.

Since I see that you are quite religiously, especially Biblically, oriented I have my own question for you, one to which I've never received a satisfactory response from any religious proponents. My point is as follows, all religions rest on the inadmissible (educationally, legally) and childish premise that "what's in this book is true...because the book says it's true." Now I'm referring to the "divine authority", "God", "Lord", etc. idea, as opposed to the strictly historical descriptions of certain places or events, some of which may or may not be correct, but not in and of themselves truly germane to the real point.

So, the question is, apart from the above stated "what's in this book, etc.", on what do you base your position that the Bible/s is/are the "word of God", i.e. the actual literal words of the presumed creator of all that exists, as opposed to myriad other explanations?

Sincerely,

Michael Horn
Authorized American Media Representative
The Billy Meier Contacts
http://www.theyfly.com

THE MEIER CONTACTS - THE KEY TO OUR FUTURE SURVIVAL

..............................................................................................................................................
Recent Presentations by Michael Horn:

University of Alberta, Canada
University of Calgary, Canada
University of, Victoria, B.C.
NEXUS Conference, Amsterdam
Bay Area UFO Conference, Santa Clara
Dolphins and ET Civilizations, Hawaii
Bodhi Tree Bookstore, Los Angeles
Conscious Living Expo, Los Angeles
National UFO Conference, Hollywood
IUFOC, Laughlin
Night Search World Forum, Memphis
AUFORN, Australia
NEXUS Conference, Australia
Art Institute of Los Angeles
New Life Expo, San Francisco
Ontario Science Center, Canada

Recent Media Appearances:

ABC News Talk Channel
CNN National
COAST TO COAST AM International
FOX Radio Alan Colmes Show National
ALL STAR RADIO National
CRN National
G4TECHTV National
RADIO AMERICA National
SIRIUS RADIO NETWORK National
TALK RADIO NETWORK National
TALK SPORT International
JOURNEY INTO THE VOID San Diego
THE CUTTING EDGE National
VOICE OF AMERICA National
WKQX National

KLBJ Austin
WCBM Baltimore
WYDE Birmingham
KKUP California
KTOX California
WGN Chicago
KNON Dallas
KOA 850 Denver
DRQ Detroit
WPON Detroit
WTOP D.C.
WLRQ Florida
WDRC Hartford
WCRA Illinois
WYBR Indiana
KCMO Kansas City
KFI Los Angeles
KLOS Los Angeles
KRLA Los Angeles
KROQ Los Angeles
WSAR Massachusetts
KQRS Minneapolis
WOTW New Hampshire
FLY New York
WLW Ohio
WKY Oklahoma
WFTW Pensacola
KYW Philadelphia
WURD Philadelphia
WMKX Philadelphia
KMOX St. Louis
KKUP San Francisco
KPRI San Diego
KIRO Seattle
KTKT Tucson
WFAD Vermont
KGAB Wyoming
WDLB Wisconsin

International Internet:

BUFO
Dr. Gianni Hayes Show
Frank Whelan Show
I Sci-Fi
Jeff Rense Program
Karma Air Radio
Kevin Smith Show
Lou Gentile
Magick Mind
Meria Heller Show
Mysteries of the Mind
Nexus Radio
Now That's Weird
Orbit Radio
Out There TV
Red-Ice Radio
RBN Live
Sarah Simmons Show
Stardust Radio Network
The Headroom
Thom Hartman
The Paracast
World Of The Unexplained
X-Squared Radio
X Zone Radio

Here is just a sample of what the media is saying about Michael Horn:

Even nationally syndicated conservative talk radio host Michael Medved had to admit “… Look, I’m intrigued by this because, again, some seemingly very bright people seem to believe this. Michael, I appreciate your spirit of openness and sharing all of this with us and your willingness to bring us all up to date on the Billy Meier controversy involving flying saucers and extraterrestrials.”
- Michael Medved - National talk radio host

“… And that is without a doubt the best show that I think I’ve ever done on the Meier case. Actually, I didn’t do it, I just hosted it. Michael Horn did it so he goes down as the best spokesman for Meier that I’ve ever had on.”
- Art Bell - Coast to Coast AM (after interviewing Michael for four hours)
500+ Radio Stations 5 million + Listeners - the largest late night talk show in North America

"You were great! You are very articulate and knowledgeable. I thoroughly enjoyed our chat and I hope you did, too. Would you like to come back on in the future?
I appreciate you coming on and you were such a gentleman and very charitable about the questions. Thank you so much."
- Gianni De Vincent Hayes - Christian talk radio host

"Thanks very much! Our audience loves this topic."
- Alan Colmes Show - Fox News

"You're a fantastic guest!"
- Ian Punnett - Coast to Coast AM (after interviewing Michael for three hours)

And, typical of the effect that Michael is making nationwide, mainstream talk radio host Karen Grant summed it up perfectly “Michael is a phenomenal guest. Whether you are a skeptic or not, he brings information that is fascinating and keeps the audience glued to their radios. The responses I receive after he has been on my show have been overwhelming. The one guest you want to have when it comes to the Meier case and contacts in general.”
- Karen Grant - National talk radio host

"Michael Horn, always a fascinating guest when he appears on Coast to Coast."
- George Noory - Talk radio host

"Thanks again for doing my show a few weeks ago. I rarely get email from listeners but I did get a few that really enjoyed hearing you and wanted your website info."

- Arielle Ford - Talk radio host, leading publicist

Regarding Michael's presentation of the scientific proof for the Billy Meier UFO contacts, and the prophetic material (documented and published by Billy Meier in 1975, 1987 and 1995) that specifically gave advance warning of the destruction of the WTC, the upcoming attacks by the USA and the president, and other events unfolding right now...legendary, conservative talk show host Barry Farber said:

"... I didn't dream I could ever enjoy a discussion of this nature, but Michael, you amaze me. It's supremely enjoyable...If you can prove one of them...then you're gonna change the world. I'm sitting here as a fascinated listener and talk host having a good hour. But if you can prove that anything [like that] came down...then I'm telling you pal, you're wasting time on the Barry Farber Show. You can change the world... It was a delight! You handle skepticism well and kept things going briskly. I've already put your material in the "volcano" file" meaning hot guests who are welcome repeatedly on the show."
- Barry Farber - Talk radio host

(Michael responds to Neumann's unctuous email, which is included in Michael's reply)

Hi Neumann,

Time being tight on this holiday weekend, let em give you two quick responses, more to follow I'm sure.

(RF) Dear Michael,

(RF) Thanks for writing to The Refiner's Fire! Sorry it's taken me awhile to respond, but my website keeps me extremely busy and, over the last week or so, I've been in the middle of some harrowing conversations with several atheists from the UK.

(RF) Since we seem to be from the opposite ends of the proverbial spectrum, I'm sure we'll have some fun conversations! Coming strictly from my Messianic Jewish belief, I contend that Meier 's assertions are complete fakes, and that he was just another "false prophet" sent by Satan to deceive humanity.

MH: The problem is here is that there's absolutely NO evidence for a "satan" outside of the belief in him that comes from that shakiest of all premises, i.e. "what's in this book is true...because this book says it's true." So assertions coming from faith and beliefs are unfortunately irrelevant. Considering also that there are dozens (a mild understatement) of religions in the world, with each adherent confidently proclaiming that theirs is the "one true religion of the one true God", plenty of credibility problems abound. BTW, Sam Harris does a consistently masterful job of dismantling religious arguments, such as they may be:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2006/12/gods_enemies_are_more_honest_t_1.html

You wrote: I'd invite you to also visit my website: www.theyfly.com .

(RF) My response: Thanks, I've read some of your most intriguing and well-written articles but, in all honesty, I believe you've been duped.

MH: Again, UNSUBSTANTIATED BELIEFS are the problem, not the basis for a solution or correction. Evidence of being "duped" is required.

(RF) One particular article suggested that Meier knowingly and purposely faked some UFO photos, and so I'm wondering why anyone would believe the rest of his assertions. This whole thing sounds Elron Hubbard-ish to me....

MH: If you only knew how many times this COMPLETELY INACCURATE, fabricated response was thrown at me. The opposite is the case, the photos, films, video, sounds recordings, metal samples have been PROVED to be authentic.

Okay, at this point I invite you to actually research that info at my site and when you have time get back to me with specifics. I'll be glad to address them.

Best and Happy New Year,

MH

(RF) You wrote: I'm closely associated with them through our common involvement in studying the Billy Meier case and the Talmud Jmmanuel,

(RF) My response: Since I had never heard of "Talmud Jmmanuel" (and neither had my Messianic Rabbi), I checked the internet and found Discovery of the "Talmud Jmmanuel" http://www.tjresearch.info/discovery.htm which contained an article that read: "For one, its title involved Jmmanuel (i.e., Immanuel, spelled with a J symbol supplying the "i" sound in place of the Aramaic/Hebrew letter "Ayin") rather than Jesus or Y'shua." Since there is no "J" in the Hebrew language, and there would have been no need to to use a "J", I contend that the "J" simply came from the mind of Swiss "discoverer" of the "Talmud Jmannuel[sic]", Eduard Meier, who wrote the Germanic "I" which happens to looks like "J" - and everyone else simply "jumped on the bandwagon"....

(RF) Furthermore, this particular article goes on to say: "In 1976 Meier learned that Rashid and his family were assassinated in Baghdad, making him (Meier) the only known surviving witness to the TJ's discovery and historicity." My response is: How very convenient! No wonder "the world" has never heard of "Talmud Jmmanuel"....

(RF) You wrote: Since I see that you are quite religiously, especially Biblically, oriented I have my own question for you, one to which I've never received a satisfactory response from any religious proponents.

(RF) My response: I like to refer to myself as "a believer in Messiah Yeshua" as opposed to "religious" which, in my opinion, has negative connotations, as it could refer to "faithful devotion to ANY acknowledged ultimate reality or deity".

(RF) You wrote: My point is as follows, all religions rest on the inadmissible (educationally, legally) and childish premise that "what's in this book is true...because the book says it's true." Now I'm referring to the "divine authority", "God", "Lord", etc. idea, as opposed to the strictly historical descriptions of certain places or events, some of which may or may not be correct, but not in and of themselves truly germane to the real point. So, the question is, apart from the above stated "what's in this book, etc.", on what do you base your position that the Bible/s is/are the "word of God", i.e. the actual literal words of the presumed creator of all that exists, as opposed to myriad other explanations?

(RF) My response: Good question! Regardless of what I say, it won't be seen as "educationally, legally" relevant because belief in God (Yahweh and His Son Yeshua) is a FAITH-BASED belief. The reason I believe is because of the "180" my life has taken since I was "zapped" by the Holy Spirit in January 1995 in a small hicktown Baptist church. This included some supernatural events that proved and supported my acceptance of Christ and revealed that I was on the "right track". I won't go into details because, unless it has actually happened to you, you won't be able to believe it, and will simply write if off as some psychiatric mind tricks....

(RF) On a more physical level, my question to you is: If the Bible isn't a "literal text", then please explain why more than 300 prophecies have already come true and are unfolding before our very eyes - especially in the Middle East. Please see http://therefinersfire.org/accurate_messiah_prophecies.htm .

(RF) Explain just how it could be a coincidence that two of God's major end times prophecies about the Jews and Israel came true in 1948, right after the Holocaust when the world briefly felt sorry for the Jews - which resulted in the Jews getting Israel back, and in one day, exactly as the Bible predicted: http://www.therefinersfire.org/israel_born_in_one_day.htm . (No one can say that these particular prophecies were written "just to make the OT prophecies come true in the NT", as was suggested by one of my atheist challengers.)

(RF) Some people have insisted that the Bible couldn't contain Truth because no one can verify what really happened, since we can't go back and personally interview Jesus or His disciples, or any of the writers of the four Gospels. My response is: Based on that premise, you can't "believe" that any of the Roman caesars, or George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or Napoleon Bonaparte existed, either...."

(RF) The fact is, many of the Bible prophecies that have come true CAN be verified today! For instance, can you explain the "coincidence" that people today are being BEHEADED (not shot, stabbed, hanged or choked, but BEHEADED), exactly as as foretold in Revelation 20:4? Can you explain why Islam is suddenly rearing up its ugly head (see our "Mark of the Beast" article at http://www.therefinersfire.org/mark_of_the_beast.htm ) and going up against the Jews and Christians (although that is being dowplayed by the media)? Who are the only people in the world who still beheadand/behand? The Muslims.....And what a "coincidence" that the fight between the Muslims and the Jews began in "Old Testament" times: http://www.therefinersfire.org/ishmael_and_isaac.htm . It is being played out today exactly as the Bible foretold.

(RF) I'd like to pose the idea that, either Meier is playing a game with the world because he apparently likes to perform hoaxes; or, he is being used by Satan as one of our major end times "false prophets" that the Bible warns us about (please see our articles challenging "false prophets" http://therefinersfire.org/challenging_false_prophets.htm ). For instance, excerpts from the article, Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt, insist that Meier was shown various prophecies from the Pleiades. Oddly, many of these same "prophecies" are listed in the Bible - new diseases and epidemics; the fact that Jews and Muslims (Isaac and Ishmael) would be at each other's throats; etc. The Book of Revelation shows some very odd items being used in modern warfare - for which the writer, John, had no words in his time....

(RF) Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt says, in part:
The universe, and everything in it, is governed by unalterable laws, basic among them is the law of cause and effect. Once the pendulum is sent out on its way, it will eventually return with the predictable result. The law always fulfills itself, in its own timing and its own way. Meier and his extraterrestrial friends seem to be able to predict, i.e. accurately calculate, the results of known to them causal actions originating from humanity and/or nature and the cosmos. And they have made it clear that certain prophesied (undesired) events can still be changed for the better…if humanity recognizes its errors and makes sufficient effort in the correct, positive direction to alter those outcomes that can still be changed. Prophecies refer to those events that are the likely outcome of causes put in motion that are still alterable, to some degree. Predictions refer to those events that, for a number of reasons, will occur with certainty. Some predictions are simply prophecies that have gone past the point of no return.

(RF) The universe was created by Yahweh who gave us hints that NOBODY back in "Biblical times" could possibly have known about: http://www.therefinersfire.org/science_bible.htm . Also, please read http://www.therefinersfire.org/science_and_bible.htm

(RF) Only GOD knows what the future holds (and what the future holds is amply outlined in the Bible, and judging from all events including ever-worsening political conditions, natural disasters, various epidemics, etc., were ARE in the "end times" as outlined in the Books of Daniel and Revelation: http://therefinersfire.org/endtime_questions.htm

(MH) In the 215th Contact, known as the Henoch Prophecies, special emphasis was placed on America and the very times we are in. (These prophecies will be contained in the book “And Still They Fly!”) More recent comments by Meier have also carried harsh and heavy warnings about the current American administration and leadership and the danger of its leading the world into a cataclysmic Third World War. Considering the credibility the Plejaren have established with their track record of impeccable accuracy since at least 1975, it would be wise of us to consider their future warnings with great seriousness.

(RF) Things are unfolding EXACTLY as God planned because man keeps falling right into his own trap BECAUSE he has ignored and disobeyed God. The Bible tells us that, in the end times, all the world will hate the Jews and eventually go up against Israel. Well, we're just about there....The only thing that has yet to happen is the appearance of the Antichrist whom the world will adore and worship because of the miraculous things he will be able to do. When this man appears, he will eventually make a seven year peace treaty with Israel - and that will be the beginning of the end as we know it....

(RF) Your article "UFO Prophet Right Again?" says: “And it will be that the fanatics of Islam will rise up and cover the lands of Europe with war, all will shake and quiver.”

(RF) The Muslims who have written to challenge my website have assured me that "one day the whole world WILL convert to Islam, or die". These things have been unfolding over thousands and years, and "the end" is right now!

(RF) I hope I have explained my viewpoint enough for you to come back with some more questions, which I will gladly answer. I'm looking forward to your response.

Shalom, Neumann

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)
Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction

From: "Biblical Truth" <BiblicalTruth@therefinersfire.org >
Sent: Sunday, 31 December 2006 3:38 PM
To: gaiaguys@gaiaguys.net
Subject: RE: RE: Your blasphemous comments about Jesus http://www.gaiaguys.net/

Dear Dyson,

(Please note that I intend to post the below on my website.)
I Cor 2:14 ...The natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them.

This will be my final e-mail because I have neither the time nor the energy to argue. Neither of us is going to "let go" of our respective beliefs, and the Bible tells us not to waste our time arguing with unbelievers. Here are but a few examples:

Matthew 7:6 - "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

2 Tim 2:14 - 14 Keep reminding people of this, and charge them solemnly before the Lord not to engage in word-battles. They accomplish nothing useful and are a catastrophe for the hearers!

Titus 3: 9 But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile. 10 Warn a divisive person once, then a second time; and after that, have nothing more to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a person has been perverted and is sinning: he stands self-condemmed[sic].

Matthew 24: 4 Yeshua replied: "Watch out! Don't let anyone fool you! 5 For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Messiah!' and they will lead many astray. 6 You will hear the noise of wars nearby and the news of wars far off; see to it that you don't become frightened. Such things must happen, but the end is yet to come. 7 For peoples will fight each other, nations will fight each other, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various parts of the world; 8 all this is but the beginning of the 'birth-pains'. 9 At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death, and all peoples will hate you because of me. 10 At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, 11 many false prophets will appear and fool many people; 12 and many people's love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah. 13 But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered. 14 And this Good News about the Kingdom will be announced throughout the whole world as a witness to all the Goyim. It is then that the end will come.

I do, however, have a few parting comments:

Clearly the simple distinction between belief and knowledge is beyond Neumann's understanding.

And all our work to condemn the destructive religious worship organized by the Bafath is lost on those who cowardly cover their eyes with their hands and refuse to see what they so fear and loathe.

The only reason I bothered to contact you at all was because you've (like every other cult in the world) have seen fit to drag Yahweh/Yeshua (our Creator) and the Bible into the whole, sordid affair.

Not MY creator! "Sordid"? A rare point of agreement! "Cult"? Not according to ANY of my MANY English language dictionaries!

I would have completely ignored your belief and your website if you had chosen to use passages from the Talmud

"the" Talmud? Like the Jewish Babylonian Talmud? Neumann will PRAY I don't start selectively quoting from THAT!

(or some other "religious" writings of Man) or tried to debunk Allah! But no, only Yahweh seems to be your enemy - wonder why that is?

Pretty obvious really. Allah, even at his most extreme and erroneous interpretation, has nothing on Jehovah the Cruel, Jehovah the Unjust, the jealous and wrathful god of the Old Testament.

...The Refiner's Fire exists to make the world aware of any and every false teaching, including yours. And I intend to do my best to warn the world about your deceitful teachings.

And how does that ignorant and arrogant mission statement dovetail with the above? "I would have completely ignored your belief and your website if you had chosen to use passages from the Talmud."

(2) Your site says: "The Hinduism, the Islamism, the Judaism, the Buddhism, and the Christianity, all of them divide the earthly human beings. THEREFORE FREE YOURSELVES FROM THESE THINGS!!!"

You're absolutely right - and that happens to be the only statement on all of your sites and links that I actually agree with!

Wow! What a hyperbolic statement! It's getting hard to sort Neumann's exaggeration-for-effect from his religious delusions here. Did we otherwise get 100% of our site 100% WRONG?! Let's see ... does the Bible mention us anywhere?

God perfectly outlined in the Bible who He is, how He wants us to behave, and how we are to worship Him - yet Man keeps turning away from God and doing his own thing.

Funny. I thought the scribes (journalists) wrote it! And is not the Refiner's Fire doing it's own thing?

Oh. Right. Silly me. I thought it was the Bafath and those they "chose" as their favorite victims/advocates.

Man has continuously come up with his own ideas about who or what God is (there's this "little hole in our soul" that NEEDS God, and that's why we're willing to believe any wind of doctrine that comes along, including spaceship fables).

But, in order to "free ourselves from these things", all we have to do is read the Bible - not give ourselves over to belief in ETs who refuse to come out and play!

24,000 pages (and counting!) of the most valuable teachings there are is refusing to come out? And I've read the Bible too, and seen through its foul, enervating and enslaving dogma.

It is in the Bible we discover that God's enemy, Satan, is responsible for all the "religions" and turmoil in this world. If everyone followed GOD'S commands and actually obeyed Him, there wouldn't be any stress or strife.

We'd be the prisoners of a totally enslaved feedlot planet, "useful for our mutton and wool", as Aleister Crowley said.

(3) You said: "Sadly, all the information coming from the Plejaren Federation and its associates is in German"....I find it very strange that, on one hand your "Plejarens" speak only German, thereby forcing their disciples to have to translate thousands of pages, while your "talmud Jmmanuel" ALSO has to be translated from German after supposedly being translated by Rashid and Meier from Aramaic.

As we have written in various places, there are several cogent reasons for the fact that the Plejaren CHOOSE to speak only in the German language during their current mission on Earth. But if you don't bother looking, you won't ever find and see the truth, and even good reasons will seems "very strange", while totally schizophrenic religious delusions will seem normal.

(Why haven't you asked Jewish rabbis to take a look at this thing and provide translations and opinions from the the Jewish perspective - after all, that's where the ideas of Talmud originate from!)

Had Neumann the common courtesy of having read the above excerpted chapter 10 from the Talmud Jmmanuel I went to the trouble to send him, I think he could have answered his own question. His difficulty with the word "talmud" is evident again here.

You are blindly are taking the word of some "Palestinian" (whose people are busy trying to kill off the Jews and steal Israel!) and a German who is now, conveniently, the "only witness" to the discovery of your "talmud".

I thought Rashid was a Greek Catholic priest, and - last I looked - Israel and Palestine were originally supposed to be two neighboring sovereign nation states, and it is the former stealing from the latter. And Meier is Swiss, not German. (Swiss ... German ... yeah yeah ... whatever.)

Do you realize both the Jerusalem and Babylonian "talmuds" were NOT God-inspired because they were written by MAN whose limited, human mindset cannot understand the things of God?

Please see my above remark: " ... the Talmud of Babylonia, which we own and are familiar with ..."

At least the JEWISH Talmuds were written by rabbis and sages who knew God and were trying their best to understand HIM!

As opposed to being the true teachings of Jmmanuel, a genuine prophet whose dad came from another planet.

(4) It amuses me to see that your "talmud Jmmanuel was written in King James style. How could that possibly be, since it's supposedly thousands of years old?

WHAT!? I don't see a single "doth", "thou", or "hath"! Of course the slightly archaic translations are designed to convey the 2000 year old Aramaic. Isn't it also amusing to see someone so amused by his own sectarian hallucinations?

(5) You said: "Also, Meier's contacts did not come from the Pleiades, which are incapable of sustaining life as we know it. Please correct at least that embarrassingly basic error." According to one of your followers, Matt Hurley ( http://www.tjresearch.info/meiertoday.htm ),

"Meier continues to have contacts, mostly of a telepathic nature, with different ETs from the region of the Pleiades, though only occasionally and not nearly as frequently as in 1975-77."

Since when is "the region of the Pleiades" the same as "the Pleiades"? If I came from the New York region, does that mean Manhattan? Jumping to conclusions does not beat actual fact-finding, but it's a lot easier in the short term.

Perhaps you all need to get together and try to make your stories match....(like the Bible, which NEVER contradicts itself.)

An admission of conspiratorial fraud? The scribes got together and got their stories straight? But ... WHAT?! ... Is this a JOKE? The Bible NEVER contradicts itself? Which Bible is that????

(6) You said: "Given your zealous advocacy of that which you "believe" to be true, let me try to address a few of your careless errors of fact. Bear in mind that, by commonly accepted definition, belief and faith can only exist in an absence of proof. Please also note that Billy Meier is the one true Prophet of the Golden Age of Knowledge, as opposed to the swiftly passing Age of Belief which has dominated the last two millennia, and culminates now in your "End Times" seeing our beleaguered planet awash in the blood spilled by senseless (ie: antilogos) sectarian violence."

Please see my above remarks about proof versus evidence. Neumann seems to suffer form short-term memory loss among his other obvious psychiatric disorders.

from supposed aliens and the "talmud Jmmanuel" which sounds curiously "King Jamesy"

But, my poor dear Neumann, thou hast indeed not read it, if thou believest that, as I hath mentioned above.

- neither of which ANYONE ON EARTH Earth except for one, single person can actually "verify"!

Had he logic to see, he could have verified it for himself by reading www.tjresearch.info the same way I and thousands of others have. There are none so blind ...

Please read this: "When UFOs Arrive What Will You Do?" - "The U.S. and other world governments already have detailed secret plans for first contact." Popular Mechanics February 2004.pdf : (648kb)

So do the good ETs like those of the Plejaren Federation. So, Neumann, show this god of yours to ME. I've got a bone to pick with him. What? Never met the man?

If this world, according to the "Plejarens" is so bad, let them come out and fix it!

They are doing a very good job supplying those of us - who are not blinded by selfish, lazy, high-handed apathy - with the tools we need to accomplish the repairs, no thanks to the "End Time" murder/suicide pyromaniacs.

There's something VERY fishy about our supposed "saviors" who refuse to reveal themselves!!!

Who said they were "saviors"? The Plejaren state quite plainly and repeatedly that the only people who can "save" us are ourselves. And - cough - where is this god of yours exactly now, Neumann, and what's HE so frightened of?

Like I said before, seeing is believing! As a matter of fact, I challenge Mr. Meier to have the Plejarens physically present themselves to us at The Refiner's Fire! When they do that, we'll discard The Refiner's Fire and put up a website revealing the "truth" of these German-speaking aliens....And you can tell them Neumann said so!

Wow! "Neumann said so". What hubris!

(7) You said: "I do not propose to attempt to address the details of your unsupported criticisms of German language numerology here, nor the other mistaken (and unsupported with logic) assumptions and demonstrable errors of fact you promote, since the only way you can straighten yourself out is through a logical and diligent study of the material provided, which is not amenable to the non-intellectual cognizance upon which you rely."

"Unsupported criticisms of German language numerology"???? I challenge you to show where the German language has EVER had numerical values!

How arrogant! I AM German, schooled in Germany - and NEVER was I taught that the German language EVER had "numerical values"!

How strange is that? I was schooled in the USA, and NEVER was I taught that the English language EVER had "numerical values"! I don't remember being taught about extraterrestrials either, nor very much else that was true.

Perhaps you should have studied the language yourself before trying to perpetrate this hideous LIE!

It might work on your mindless drones and followers, but it won't work on your average German.

Psychologists call this "projection", when a neurotic person attributes his own behavior to others.

Go to Germany and, for instance, find the road signs to any German town that begins with an "I" and you'll see it looks like a "J"!

And by the way, if you're trying to impress me with your over-use of "big words", it's not working....

And I am still not QUITE won over to Messianic Hebraism by Neumann's irresistible wit, charm and flattery.

(8) You said: "Their contacts are restricted to Billy Meier for the obvious logical reason that the Plejaren Federation - incorrectly identified and worshipped in the past as "guardian angels" - is very concerned that the destructive religious factionalism that arose previously with Jmmanuel and Mohammed are never repeated with Billy. They tell us that, as humans, they are not all-knowing and all-seeing, but their advanced technology certainly does permit them to know a great deal more about you than you know yourself, and I put it to you that if you had already conversed with one of them you would not be aware of that fact."

There are also inconvenient truths. And that which deserves ridicule is often in the eye of the beholder.

Please SHOW that the world EVER "worshipped them" as "guardian angels"! It isn't written ANYWHERE - especially in the Bible! NO ONE has ever heard of this besides you Meier clones!

We had ONE Savior and His name is Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) who was our Final Sin Sacrifice.

Of course not, if "God" was indeed the creator of all that is. That's one of those inconvenient truths.

Granted, but I can't recall in exactly which chapter and verse it is where he discusses television either.

You people are perpetrating the biggest crock in history and, unfortunately, many people seem to be falling for it.

Again, I refer you to Matthew 7:13 which tells us most people would rather believe in a lie than to discover the Truth of Yahweh - and they will end up paying for this mistake throughout all eternity! God had made every attempt to reveal Himself,

and people like you (like every other unbeliever) come along to try to debunk the Truth. Shame on you! I pray God will thwart ALL your future efforts to deceive the world, and expose you for what you really are.

It would be nice if others helped expose us for what we really are. All assistance is gratefully received.

About the "sketch" of our God done by Plejarens - what exactly is that supposed to prove?

See above. I said, " ... for your interest" not "as proof". Neumann seems to accept that it's "God", but not that it's a sketch. Odd.

As above. (Sigh!) It is not offered as proof, but, as described, it is offered "in an effort to assist you" to see that the Talmud Jmmanuel is neither the Jerusalem nor Babylonian talmuds with which you are familiar within your Hebraic faith, but constitutes the original book from which of the book of Matthew was crafted.

since it's written by Man and placed on the Internet, WITHOUT revealing its whereabouts or offering people the chance to come and touch it and to perform their own examinations, etc.

As above. No. Please do not take anybody's word for anything. Strive to do your own independent logical research.

The Bible, on the other hand, has had more than 300 prophecies fulfilled ( http://therefinersfire.org/accurate_messiah_prophecies.htm ), and some are yet to be fulfilled - and some have actually been fulfilled in our lifetimes. You can pooh-pooh this as much as you want, but you cannot deny that Israel became a nation again in one day ( http://www.therefinersfire.org/israel_born_in_one_day.htm ), exactly as foretold in two separate Bible prophecies. The fact that you have admitted Yeshua (Immanuel) existed indicates you HAVE to believe in the prophecies that HE fulfilled! If you don't, then you're hypocrites.

As above. Wrong guy. Not the fictional "Jesus/Yeshua/Immanuel/Emmanuel" (God With Us/ Savior of Yahweh/Savior of the Jews, etc. Jmmanuel. And nobody HAS to believe in ANYTHING.

And by the way, I must warn you that the Bible tells us that the punishment of those who "add to or subtract" from God's Word (as you have clearly done) are going to spend eternity wishing they hadn't:

Revelation 22: 18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, may God add to him the plagues which are written in this book. 19 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, may God take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.

The Eastern Templar Freemason's curse that we will be "centers of pestilence" doesn't work either. Neither of us have even had a cold since 2001.

(9) You said: "Just because you do not believe something does not automatically make it untrue, Neumann. To believe otherwise is pure solipsism." I only believe in proven facts, not something that is riddled with contradictions and absurdities.

"Facts" which can only be "proven" by the Bible, as opposed to simple logic. Pure ANTILOGOS and the real 666. And if they are proven facts then it is not - by definition - belief, it is knowledge, but these are far too subtle semantic arguments for the little-word people.

(10) You said: "Billy Meier, unlike your growing list of FALSE prophets, has survived 21 documented assassination attempts. Reason demands that the same criminal sources would do their level best to also try to discredit this case with Internet calumny. This is indeed the case, and the assertion that Meier himself admitted to fraud is a glowing example of it, as well as how belief (without logic: ie.- ANTILOGOS) leads people away from the very same truth that can liberate and empower them if they only knew it."

Well, Satan isn't anyone's friend, is he?

He has no problems pitting his own agents against each other, so it's no wonder there have been assassination attempts on your hero.

Any satanists suing the Refining Fire team for defamation lately? Any attempts made on YOUR life, Neumann, as there has been on ours?

OK. You didn't make it up. Someone else did, and you uncritically believe and repeat their unsubstantiated lies. Do I detect a pattern emerging here?

(11) You said: "I was not being the slightest bit sarcastic with you, Neumann, in spite of the fact that certain cultures, such as yours, could easily mistake my unvarnished statements of demonstrable fact as such." - and in the very next paragraph (and throughout all of your correspodence) you contradict yourself by exhibiting the very sarcasm I accused you of, in the first place: "All of us who promote the iconoclastic renewed truth and understand how it manifests its elemental power are very grateful for woefully uninformed and specious public criticisms like yours, because they serve to ultimately actually reinforce the immutable truth in the minds of those who are capable of employing simple logic, as opposed to faith." You don't call that sarcastic?

You got it in one, brain-box! Sarcasm is defined as a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain, like the preceding sentence.

I have a cousin in Australia, and she never talks to me like that, so apparently this rude and sarcastic usage of the English language must be germaine[sic] to only those who believe in ETs!

So we're even. I have a cousin in the USA, and she never talks to me like that, so apparently this rude and sarcastic usage of the English language must be germane to only those who believe in "God"!

(12) You said: "In spite of your difficulty with technological terminology, please do explore the technologically abstruse concept of telenotics, and try to come to grips with the information....You might wish to ask your military staffer(s) for technical assistance." You didn't need to patronize us, Dyson.

Don't I? You invent a patriarchal and misogynistic "God", and act naughty like children.

Good trick. I though "techno-babble", like "religio-babble", was - by definition - nonsense.

- as are the rest of our rabbis and Bible teachers around the world (who, by the way - just because we refer to them as "staff" aren't paid; they volunteer their time to The Refiner's Fire). Furthermore, I speak four languages and am a journalist by trade (and by the way, since you like to be nit-picky about spelling, perhaps you need to brush up on your German, which contains several errors).

Not my German: FIGU's. And ditto your English, as above.

(13) You said: "In closing, it is axiomatic that people like you who act boorishly disrespectfully to others, whom you do not know, is not in a strong position to complain about perceived rudeness from Michael Horn." PERCEIVED rudeness? I am attaching(*) his response to Brett for your perusal, and you can make up your mind as to whether we "perceived" his rudeness or not....

If the shoe fits...

(14) If you believe nothing else I've said, then I will simply suggest you keep your eyes and ears open to the next Bible prophecy to be fulfilled - which is the Antichrist making that seven-year peace treaty with Israel. Once that happens, you only have seven years left on the Earth that you know and love. And your "Plejarens" won't be able to save you in those days; only GOD will....

Thanks for the tip. I'll keep my ear to the ground. It stands to reason that - in the same way there are "End Times" Christian Zionist Apocalypticans busily helping "God" bring about the prophesied Armageddon so his only begotten sacrificial lamb can return for the "rapture" - there should also be a few of them trying to bring about the hating of Jewish people by the entire world, as Neumann mentioned above, for the same insane and suicidal "reason". Some seem to have found the FIGU discussion board, too.

Neumann

The Refiner's Fire (therefinersfire.org)

Revealing Biblical Truth in a world of myth and fiction

MH: I will make a few quick comments for the benefit of the writer and any other readers. I do suggest that the writer do a little more homework before making such easily answered, refuted and dismissed comments.

Comments on the “Meier” UFO photos.

(Refiners Fire)In a 25 page tome on the “theyfly.com” website entitled “UFO Contact from the Pleiades, A Preliminary Investigation Report” (http://www.theyfly.com/PDF/PhotoAnalysis3.pdf), Wendelle Stevens - who, coincidentally, runs a UFO photo website at http://www.ufophotoarchives.com and happens to be a convicted pedophile, according to Saucer Smear - http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v45/ss980320.htm - provides “photographic analysis” of the Meier UFO photographs.

MH: Before being to quick to try to discredit Stevens, a distinguished U.S. military man with a stellar record, do some research on the case (and his involvement) as a whole. Perhaps there’ll be a little clarity as to why Stevens, who had never before or since been accused or convicted of this or any other crime (almost unheard of for a real sex offender) might have been pressured to drop the Meier investigation.

(Refiners Fire)Without a doubt this the most convoluted assemblage of “tech talk” I’ve ever seen! It is akin to the “techno-babble” used in sci-fi television shows and movies where they spew all this “scientific” language to make the audience think they are scientists. They use all this techno-language, yet never produce any of the photos they used, or the data they generated or analyzed. Thus, the article is useless to prove anything. Though the language used in this document is sometimes valid, without the details and the data the entire text is useless as “proof” of anything.

MH: Unfortunately, the writer is unaware of the 1,000+ pages in the Investigative Reports, complete with many of the photos discussed and tested. Since the testing was done in high level facilities, with top notch equipment, by credentialed professionals, the writer’s lack of familiarity with all of these details gives us a rather poor impression of his investigative skills, if any.

(Refiners Fire)All “UFO” images provided on the “theyfly.com” web site look like saucers, pie pans, hub caps, or ornate platters . See: http://www.theyfly.com/photos/photos.htm

MH: Is there anything more painful than someone who knows nothing at all about the decades long, ongoing case (65 years!) the deep documentation, etc. spouting off about “look like”? Considering the stellar credentials of those who authenticated Meier’s evidence, such amateurish commentaries again reveal a prejudiced, superstitious critic who probably believes in some religion or another, for which nothing even remotely comparable as far as evidence actually exists. Could that be possible? I wonder if the “expert” saw these:

http://www.theyfly.com/newsflash/newsflash2.htm

http://www.theyfly.com/newsflash5/tree.htm

http://www.tjresearch.info/O-S_photos.htm

http://www.billymeier.com/archives/Wedding_Cake_ship.mpg

(Refiners Fire)Though Mr. Horn goes to great length to “explain away” the attempts to show how the photos could be faked, and none of the photos provided on the site are good enough to assess, the following are the primary problems with such photos which contribute to the impression they are fake:

(Refiners Fire)No photo sequences – if anyone was taking photos of a real unknown object in the sky, they would snap repeated photos of the object. With luck, this would allow two or more photos taken within seconds of each other, to be stereoscopically matched (provided the camera was laterally displaced between photos) to truly identify the unknown object’s distance form the camera. Curiously, no photo sequences are presented.

MH: Can you beat that? Well, the poster that I am looking at right now, which has a 32 photo sequence of the UFO, is an absolute impossibility to fake with the known equipment, resources and conditions proven to have existed at the time. But

(Refiners Fire)Lighting and shadows. It comes as no surprise that the “UFOs” in the Meier’s photos do not show the same shadowing or illumination as the surrounding terrain and objects in the photo.

MH: Absolutely incorrect – as any half-bright person would know from having read the photo analysis and studied the photos carefully.

(Refiners Fire)Lack of motion. If the “UFOs” were moving, and the photographer was attempting to take a snapshot of them, his camera would be moving as it was panned to follow the “UFO” motion, and objects in the foreground would be motion-blurred, not just out of focus. Hence, photos like “Photo 12” (http://www.theyfly.com/newsflash5/tree.htm) are more likely faked since the tree in the foreground is not motion-blurred. (This assessment, of course assumes that the UFOs in the image were moving. If they were not moving, then the tree in the foreground would not be motion-blurred.

MH: So your point is? Of course, since you also haven’t seen the eight 8mm film segments of up to three UFOs in broad daylight this brilliant analysis is as worthless as all that preceded, and follows.

(Refiners Fire)Clarity of the “UFO”. The “UFO” in the photo is often “clearer” or sharper than the other objects in the photo. This could mean several things, but the primary cause of an object that looks clearer is that the image is a composite from 2 or more photos, or the object was far closer to the camera than the other objects and hence did not suffer degradation due to atmospheric haze that tends to degrade the sharpness and color of distant objects.

MH: No, junior, that’s neither the reason nor the case. Usually the clearer image would be from a small model close to the camera, which was ruled out in all of Meier’s photos and films. But just so you know, composites were also ruled out by the investigators, an independent author/researcher and several photographic experts. You are – clearly – a rank amateur and, hey, you don’t believe in made up critters like Satan, demons, angels, God, etc., do ya? Ever apply any of your brilliant analytical skills to any of that hokum?

(Refiners Fire)Common objects. The “UFO” look just like common objects found in the universe - but only on Earth.

MH: I think the “look like” premise has been thoroughly debunked, merely by its expression and implications thereof, especially as applies to its author.

(Refiners Fire)Lack of credible movie footage. The footage provided at this link: http://www.theyfly.com/photos/photos.htm#movie is clearly a spinning disk held by a string or fishing line, with the suspension point off camera. These “movies” are laughable.

MH: Well, while your laughing, I suggest that you not only read this:

From: UFO Contact from the Pleiades A Preliminary Investigation Report

Copyrights 1982, 1982, 1980, 1979, 1978 Wendelle C. Stevens

"For analysis of the moving picture sequences of the Pleiadian spacecraft filmed in color in super 8mm format by Eduard Meier we turned to Mr. Jun-Ichi Yaoi of Tokyo, Japan, a world recognized expert in the film and television industry, now working as an officer in Nippon Television Corporation.

In the 18 March sequence Meier filmed the spacecraft circling a large tree in front of a farmhouse. The sky was overcast with a low ceiling, and occasionally light snowflakes fell. The motion of the spacecraft looks suspiciously like it is tethered from above as it appears to circle the tree and then to swing back and forth over the tree, except that on three occasions the spacecraft changes its motion abruptly with no change in the tilt of the vertical axis of the ship. If it was in fact tethered, one would expect the vertical axis to tilt as the tether point above was moved. In another measurement it was found that the tilt angle of the vertical axis in one oscillation sequence was sufficient that the axis crossed within the frame and would have put the tether point within the picture. No tether point source was revealed, in one of the final oscillation sequences the object appeared to pass directly over the top of the tree, and it is clearly seen that the tree was swept over in the direction of the spacecraft, or appeared to follow the spacecraft as it passed. Clearly no model could have produced this effect. When we revisited the scene we found that the tree had died and was cut down."

And then allow me to wager – any amount of money that you wish – that you can not and will not even attempt to duplicate the above referred to movie clip…or the other seven that will cause you to slink away meekly and seek some sort of, what do they call it, salvation?

(Refiners Fire)Michael Horn goes to great lengths to try to salvage the “evidence” provided by “Billy” Meier as “fact” and as provided to him (Meier) by the aliens. Let’s pick apart just a few of his claims:

From “Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt”, (http://www.theyfly.com/PDF/ProofBeyondCorrected.pdf) by Michael Horn:

“115th Contact, October 19, 1978: Meier describes existence of Jupiter’s rings, says composed mainly of dust, particles, sulfur ions flung off by volcanoes on Io, describes Io as most volcanically active body in solar system, smooth, level-surfaced, no water; describes Europa as ice-encrusted; Jupiter said to have 17 actual moons (Plejaren don’t consider all of Jupiter’s satellites meet their standards of moons); describes nature of Jupiter’s huge funnelshaped storm” “Corroborated: March 5, 1979, NASA’s Voyager 1 probe discovers rings of Jupiter, Io most volcanically active body in solar system, Europa covered in ice…5 months after Meier published information”

On the “prophesy” that Meier knew of the rings of Jupiter in October 1979, before the Voyager Spacecraft in 1979 – the existence of Jovian rings was widely discussed in the planetary community since 1974 when the data of two Pioneer spacecraft suggested the existence of Jovian rings. In fact the photos by the Voyager spacecraft were specifically targeting rings as a result of the Pioneer data, and Voyager is typically credited with the “discovery” of the rings since they actually captured photos of them. So, the fact that “Billy” suggested in 1978 there would be rings, was no “revelation” by aliens. (Some web sites state the existence of rings of Jupiter was “totally unexpected”. This is simply not true.) Ref: Icarus 138, 214–223 (1999)

As to the number of Jovian moons, in 1978, Jupiter was known to have 13 (the most recently discovered was in 1974). Interestingly enough, Meier’s aliens, the “Plejaren” say there were 17, but as of this date (2006) there are 63 known. Meier’s (or Horn’s) excuse is that not all “satellites” meet the “Plajaren” criteria. (http://stardate.org/resources/ssguide/jupiter.html)

MH: Am I supposed to be seeing some kind of rebuttal here, or just a fancy tap dance? Did someone announce that Jupiter did have rings before Meier did on October 19, 1978? Am I the only one who noticed that the genius didn’t mention Europa being covered in ice (also unknown before Meier published it), nor what JPL called the “most important discovery of the mission” (March 9, 1979), the fact that Io is the most volcanically active body in the solar system?

Is it remotely possible that the Plejaren do indeed have a different standard for what they consider a genuine moon? (See: http://www.theyfly.com/PDF/MeierSaturnInfo.pdf )

(Refiners Fire)Also from “Proof Beyond a Reasonable Doubt”:

“1978: In a Wasserman publication Meier foretells launch of telescope at end of 1980s that would make unfathomable discoveries in space, writes that a comet would be discovered in late 1980s to early 1990s that would be named Toutatis, may threaten Earth in September 2004”. Corroborated: Hubble telescope launched April 1990

Corroborated: 1989, French astronomers discover comet, named it…Toutatis, predicted to come closest to Earth September 29, 2004

The concept of a large space telescope was openly discussed in the scientific community as early as 1962, and the planning for the Space Telescope that became the Hubble Space Telescope began in 1972, with an expected launch date of 1985! This was widely discussed in the open press, so it is not surprising that Meier would know of it from human beings, not space aliens. See: Scientific American, Volume 247, Number 1, July 1982, pp. 40-51.

MH: Yes, it would be surprising, for reasons that would only become known to you if you actually knew anything about what the investigators discovered about Meier’s access to all of the information that people would like us to believe he somehow had access to.

(Refiners Fire)Though the “1978 Wasserman” publication is unnamed, it is unlikely that Mr. Meier actually said any such thing, specifically the naming of a yet to be discovered “comet”. Toutatis was discovered by the French in 1989, and it is an earth crossing asteroid not a comet. And, yes it passed by the earth in 2004. But it also passed the earth in 1989, 1992, and 2000. It will pass again in 2008. Didn’t the “Plejarin” want Mr. Meier to have the complete picture?

MH: That is the name of the publication and the object itself wasn’t named until 1989 by French astronomers.

MH: Let me be the first to suggest that you don’t rush in quite so quickly with the same kind of “research skills” that you doubtless employed in determining the “reality” of your religious beliefs. Really, take some time, at least several days of reading and researching as a bare bones beginning to getting your paradigm changed into two nickels.

And I do sincerely requested that you take me seriously on this. I consider my response to be a rather generous gift of my valuable time, one that I won’t so quickly repeat should you be impetuous and equally ill-prepared with your next offering.

My associates and I who seriously and thoroughly research the Meier case are interested in TRUTH, not ancient, superstitious, illogical “cause this book says so” belief systems that have done nothing more than cripple the human consciousness and enslave the sad adherents to their fear-based, hell and damnation nonsense, for which they have a unique ability to bring into reality the very hell, right here on earth, that they threaten their blind followers with in the “after life”.

Dear Neumann,

"And I intend to do my best to warn the world about your deceitful teachings."

Thank you very much! We are now working together! Sadly, you seem incapable of distinguishing between the two different meanings of the two different English words, "belief" and "knowledge".

"Ultimately, the enemies [of the truth] only contribute to the recognition of the truth and growth of those who think spiritually." - Semjase

All the very best, Neumann, on your ignorant path of freely chosen misery. Really. :-)

Peace in wisdom,
Dyson

Talmud Jmmanuel 7:11. "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.